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Brian Edmunds's avatar

Hi Len! Great piece, clearly put as usual. You put every aspect of choices of cutting our collective liability to our elderly. Saving money for old age will stop that spending during the working life. And reducing pension pay out also reduces spending power in the same way, it takes money out of our tax paying economy. And puts it in the hands of bankers, stock markets and pension funds who make a lot of money from us for playing with our/that money by charging other people interest or charges to pay themselves first. Len it’s a God forsaken maze for sure. Are we not being narrow minded here? Why are we limiting ourselves and our old age to poverty and enjoyment? All that, those cuts do, is to stop money moving. In one fell swoop by taking away from the pension mob the power of spending that money back in the tax paying economy? Not only that what do you suggest they all do with no money? Len, this is a very bad thing to do. The private sector rely now on all that spending from the public sector. They are a symbiotic. One doesent pay for the other, they exist together. I’ve long been of the view that income tax and NIC are one and the same. And I have long held the view that, both taxes are an illusion tax Len. Just because there is income in the heading, doesn’t mean it’s paid by employees! On the contrary, it’s paid by employers!! The worker doesn’t get it to pay it or get it to enjoy or invest before they have to pay it. Self employed people can enjoy it before payment. Indeed they don’t pay it either, another illusion. Their employers pay it within the cost of employment. So it’s always paid by those who employ as the trigger is SPENDING Len. Spending money is the vital double act of any economy. It’s supposed to be a fair exchange of work. But unfortunately we have become used to work exchange not being fair nor is it all exchanged! And there is our problem Len. In assessing fair exchange of money that triggers tax revenue. At present, we have a clear deficit between tax in snd spending out. To give a chive of cutting the cost of governance on the face of it sounds plausible. But what that does is reduce our ability to thrive. We don’t need less SPENDING Len, we need more SPENDING to give us the tax take we need to it’s our way as we all want! We don’t want less pensions we want more Len! A pension is an acceptable way to keep us going in old age. Yes it has to be paid by workers of today. We aren’t savages Len. The fittest survive. We aren’t and should be a caring and thoughtful society. No to cuts. We have underfunded our governments for decades. That’s why we are tripping in potholes and closing schools because the roofs caving in! And yes we have underfunded our pensions. And savings mean you sideline money snd put off enjoying it as a result. We put off SPENDING it too! Leaving it to Bankers and Pension fund managers to enjoy it instead!! What’s that about? That’s a bloody liberty if you ask me. We don’t need private pensions, we just need a bloody good one, a state pension that isn’t half of a minimum wage! Pension schemes are Ponzi schemes anyway. It’s what Bernie Madoff did. Spend other people’s money and enjoy it with a promise of more later. Similar to income tax and Nic. Telling everyone it’s them who pay that tax that are the true taxpayers is wrong and misleading. It’s SPENDING of money via SPENDING on wages that triggers tax not receiving money. It’s money via SPENDING that triggers tax. So business pays income tax and Nic and business is employers and customers, clients and profits. Not employees. Now if you see and accept the trigger of tax, all tax is SPENDING of MONEY and MONEY having to move like Council Tax then surely the ‘growth’ we are all wanting, not for cuts but for proper services and pensions then the answer is not in knee jerk defeatist cuts but in growth gained by increased SPENDING? From increased spending, you have to have more thru put if money. Now the poor, the pensioners and most family’s all SPEND all their money each month anyway. 100% of income they SPEND. So they can’t possibly pay anymore than they already do unless they get more money not less Len. That’s the only way you we they get growth. Move more money in more weight in quicker time. Cutting is going in the wrong direction Len. No what we need is to see that our daily pot from which we trigger tax take is underfunded. It’s devoid of money freely moving via SPENDING with no debt or interest attached. That in turn makes the exchequer devoid of enough tax take and all because there is a pot of our money held outside our daily economy held by the minority of people who hold the majority of our money away snd outside of our economic pot that pays tax! That money is unspent, unused and idle. It contributes nothing to our economy snd triggers no tax revenue. You don’t pay tax on money NOT SPENT, none!! Nada!!! It’s from that pot the government borrow! Our own money!! We have to borrow it back with strings attached. They want it back plus more in interest!!! So they get richer at us getting poorer. We allow it and shouldn’t . It’s unfair and undemocratic Len. It’s not a far snd equitable exchange of work. Now I’m all for earning as much as you can. I’m all for Wayne Rooney getting paid millions to kick a ball. But surely, if he doesn’t SPEND it back how can the system work? Well it’s not Len! It’s not working because people like him who get more than they need to spend , aren’t spending it all back in time for our needs. ( sorry to Wayne you may spend it all) that’s the issue. Not only is money not return or exchanged via spending but they hold it for years on end! We have been borrowing for years. So it’s been going on for years. Why are we borrowing our own money back Len, when the government can change the system and framework so they get more than enough tax revenue! We don’t need cuts or less expectations because those who think we don’t deserve it or we all can’t afford it? We can’t afford it now because we are underfunding the pot that triggers tax!! Not we live beyond our means. We don’t live to our potential means Len. Debate this Len. It’s too easy to cut. Everyone does that. Look around we are crumbling not because we need more cuts. Because we allow vast amounts of the money we all need to be held untaxed and unused outside our working economy.

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Paul Cassidy's avatar

Would any political party have the bottle to make any changes of the scale necessary? Well, the Thatcher government managed, as you describe, to pare back the updating to inflation only so there is precedent. I wonder if it was in their manifesto or just done once elected; the former might have frightened the horses as Teresa May found when she boldly included in her 2017 manifesto a bold, and necessary, requirement for people to start paying for their own social care in old age rather than leaving an inheritance and saw a huge opinion poll lead evaporate into a failure gain a majority against Corbyn.

An option you don’t suggest that I would advocate is scrapping the state pension altogether for new entrants to the workforce, making it clear that provision for old age is now wholly a personal responsibility. I’d go further and remove the future entitlement for anyone currently under 30 (maybe up to 40?) on the basis that they still have enough time to save, which would have to be compulsory. Obviously there would still be welfare benefits for those in poverty in old age but there should still be huge savings overall. Clearly, this is a very long term solution but it’s a long term problem caused by decades of neglect of the impending time bomb. We have to start somewhere and this seems to me to be one of the least painful approaches as the young famously don’t worry too much about about the distant future.

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